Sidereal Zodiac is not Authentic


David Frawley says: ”Because the tropical system is a Solar-based system the commonly held opinion is that the tropical system is better at describing the personality and psychological patterns. The Vedic system is often considered to be better at describing the soul nature and predicting actual events because it’s tied to the actual fixed constellations.”

The “actual fixed constellations” are 13 in number and all of them are of unequal size. Therefore please explain how the sidereal zodiac (12 equal size signs) is a high-fidelity representation of the “actual constellations.”

The signs are not constellations to begin with. They are mathematical divisions of the Sun’s yearly apparent path. The constellations bearing their names are approximate namesakes.

Furthermore, the Sun represents the soul. The Moon represents the mind.  Even if we accept the wrong statement that the tropical zodiac is “more solar-based” why would this describe mental character like personality and psychology, that is the Moon’s affair. And why would it not describe “soul nature” which is the Sun’s domain? The logic presented in this quote is exceedingly sloppy on every level.

David Frawley writes in his book, The Astrology of the Seers, that “The sidereal zodiac is probably the original zodiac historically, as it is the observable zodiac. The tropical, which is an abstract zodiac, must have been derived from it, as all abstractions are usually based on underlying observable things.”

The observable stars consists of 13 constellations on the ecliptic and each one is a different size. What is the resemblance of this observation to a “sidereal zodiac” of 12 equal signs? It is certainly only an approximate resemblance.

Furthermore the 12 signs exist as a division of the Sun’s path intersected by the Moons – there being 12 lunar cycles through the zodiac during the Sun’s single cycle. Thus the signs are based upon the Sun’s movement. Stars cannot be seen / observed at all when the Sun is out. Rather what is observed is the length of the day and night. Thus equinoxes and solstices are the observable phenomenon relative to the Sun’s motion through the year, not stars.

The lunar “zodiac” is stellar and sidereal, because we observe stars when the Moon is out at night. Thus the lunar division of 27 / 28 star-clusters (nakshatra) is surely sidereal.

“But I have been working with sidereal zodiac for years, and…”

I am not saying that the sidereal zodiac makes an astrological chart completely bogus. I am saying that the tropical zodiac makes it clearer and simpler. Furthermore I am not concerned with so-and-so’s “experience” or “interpretation” if it contradicts the clear statements of Sastra. Western people may not understand this epistemology, but at least those of you who purport to be “Vedic” and “Indian” should know the validity of this outlook. The Shastra - Srimad Bhagavatam, Surya Siddhanta and all others –  define the zodiac as a tropical entity. Therefore the case is closed. Please see my article and video for full details on this: http://vicdicara.com/12-signs-of-the-zodiac-1.php

- Vic DiCara

Review of “Vedic Origins of the Zodiac: The Hymns of Dirghatamas in the Rig Veda” By David Frawley


English: Vishnu sahasranama manuscript, ca 169...

English: Vishnu sahasranama manuscript, ca 1690. Vishnu being worshipped in his five forms, including Rama and Lakshmana. Opaque watercolour on paper, Mewar, India. (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

In continuing response to my new video I’ve been asked to comment on  an article written by David Frawley entitled, Vedic Origins of the Zodiac: The Hymns of Dirghatamas in the Rig Veda.

I’ll quote relevant sections and then comment.

[In] the Rig Veda, the oldest Vedic text, there are clear references to a chakra or wheel of 360 spokes placed in the sky.

Mr. Frawley points out that the Rg Veda mentions a wheel in the sky with 360 spokes. The exact reference is Rg 1.164.11 and also 1.164.48. These state, “The wheel of time moves through the heavens with six spokes and 720 pegs grouped in pairs

The immediately surrounding verses make it clear that this wheel belongs to the Sun, and that it’s circle through heavens is a year, which is also divided in other ways, including six seasons.

This clearly shows that ancient Indians divided the year into 12 months, 360 days, 720 days and nights, etc. Since the same lunisolar motion that creates 12 months of the year creates a zodiac of 12 equal signs it is not too far fetched to infer that the ancient Indian’s divided the Sun’s path over the course of the year (the ecliptic)  into 12 divisions.

This shows that the 12 Rg Vedic divisions of the ecliptic are sun-based, based on the movement of the Sun during the year – which is to say, they are tropical.

This doesn’t show

  • that they used these 12 divisions for astrological prognostication
  • that they symbolized them as we do, ram, bull, twins, etc.

The hymns of Dirghatamas speak clearly of a zodiac of 360 degrees, divided in various ways, including by three, six and twelve, as well as related numbers of five and seven. We must remember that the zodiac is first of all a mathematical division of the heavens such as this hymn outlines. This is defined mainly according to the elements, qualities and planetary rulerships of the twelve signs. The symbols we ascribe to these twelve divisions is a different factor that can vary to some degree.

Here, Mr. Frawley is admitting the points I made above. The 12 divisions of space/time in the Vedas…

  • Are mathematical, not stellar
  • Can not truly be called a “zodiac” because it is not invested with the mostly animal symbols that we ascribe to the 12 astrological divisions.

The actual stars making up the constellation that goes along with the sign is yet a third factor. For example, some constellations are less or more than thirty degrees, but the mathematical or harmonic division of each sign will only be thirty degrees. What is important about the hymns of Dirghatamas is that he shows the mathematical basis of such harmonic divisions of a zodiac of 360 degrees.

Thus, these references show that the twelve Vedic divisions of space/time are not  divisions of stars into constellations. In other words, the hymns show that they are not sidereal.

According to Dirghatamas Rig Veda I.155.6, “With four times ninety names (caturbhih sakam navatim ca namabhih), he (Vishnu) sets in motion moving forces like a turning wheel (cakra).” This suggests that even in Vedic times Vishnu had 360 names or forms, one for each degree of the zodiac. A fourfold division may correspond to the solstices and equinoxes.

This is brilliant. Vishnu causes time to turn on a wheel with 360 days/degrees, divided into four groups of ninty – and these four divisions are the solstices and equinoxes – further evidence that the Vedic 12-fold wheel is tropical.

The Surya Siddhanta gives a similar view of the zodiac originally divided in four parts.  My video explains this.

Elsewhere Dirghatamas states, I.164.36, “Seven half embryos form the seed of the world. They stand in the dharma by the direction of Vishnu.” This probably refers to the seven planets.

Very interesting, as is much of the article that immediately follows. Coming to…

Yet another verse (43) of this same hymn of Dirghatamas refers to the Vishuvat, the solstice or equinox, showing that such astronomical meanings are clearly possible.

Dr. Frawley, in my opinion, has made a brilliant presentation giving the most plausible demonstration I have ever heard that the ancient Vedic people of India conceived of the year (and thus the ecliptic) in 12 divisions, connected with seven planets. Perhaps unintentionally he has also brought to light that these divisions are relative to tropical anchors: solstices and equinoxes.

The zodiac in Vedic thought is the wheel of the Sun. It is the circle created by the Sun’s rays.

Indeed, the Vedic 12-fold division of space is tied to the Sun (tropical), not to stars (sidereal).

…in Astronomy Before the Telescope, C. Walker (ed.), St. Martin’s Press, New York, 1996, pps. 123-124, Pingree suggests that Mul. Apin, Babylonian tablets that date from 687 to 500 BC has “’an ideal calendar’ in which one year contains 12 months, each of which has 30 days, and consequently exactly 360 days; a late hymn of the Rgveda refers to the same ‘ideal calendar’. And Mul.Apin describes the oscillation of the rising-point of the sun along the eastern horizon between its extremities when it is at the solstices; the same oscillation is described in the Aitareya Brahmana.’” This ideal calendar is the basis for the zodiac and its twelve signs at a mathematical level. Clearly Pingree is referring to Rig Veda I.164 as his ‘late’ hymn of the Rig Veda.

This is exactly what I was saying about Mul.Apin in my video.

…a zodiac of 360 degrees and its twelvefold division are much older in India than any Greek or even Babylonian references…

This seems to be the main point of Mr. Frawley’s article, which is not really a debate that significantly thrills me. In my opinion the beautiful fundamental principles of astrology have a superhuman source and were comprehended by humans in the krta and treta yugas, well before any Greek, Babylonian or Rg Vedic culture existed.

Clearly the Vedas show the mathematics for an early date for the zodiac as well as the precessional points of these eras long before the Babylonians or the Greeks supposedly gave them the zodiac.

Mr. Frawley makes a significant point for the antiquity and indigenous status of 12 divisions of the ecliptic in Indian. He did not demonstrated that the 12-fold zodiac was used for prognostication (“foreknowledge”) prior to Babylonian and Greek influence. Nor is it really explicitly clear anywhere in the Veda, to my knowledge, that any form of astrology was used from prognostication. The records, so far as I have seen, only demonstrate calendrical usage. I would like to hear Mr. Frawley give evidence for the use of astrology as a means of prognostication in ancient India.

Please note that I am not embracing any side of the argument, merely asking for a discussion on the topic.

The Rig Veda has another cryptic verse that suggests its cosmic numerology. According to it the Cosmic Bull has four horns, three feet, two heads and seven hands (Rig Veda IV.58.3). This sounds like a symbolic way of presenting the great kalpa number of 4,320,000,000 years.

This is a very interesting note to end on, and raises a significant contention regarding the calculations of Swami Sri Yukteshwar.

- Vic DiCara

www.vicdicara.com

More Reviews of Articles About Sidereal vs. Tropical Zodiacs in India


In continuing feedback from my newest video, I’ve been asked to comment on several articles that cover similar topics. I reviewed on such article in my previous post. Here are a few more.

Sidereal vs. Tropical Debate, by Vaughn Paul Manley

REF: http://lightonvedicastrology.com/articles-sidereal_tropical.htm

First I want to express my appreciation for Vaughn Paul as a good and helpful person.

This article is better than most articles on the subject, IMO. But there are a few things I disagree with, only since you are asking. Vaughn Paul presents the idea that both zodiac systems are good. In practice, I agree that good astrology can be done using either zodiac. My video explains why I feel this way: because the zodiac is only one of several important points that make up an astrological system. Although I practically agree that good astrology can be done with either zodiac, I do believe that one zodiac system is correct and the other incorrect.

A few other points from this article:

An astonishing thing to contemplate is that the ancient Vedic rishis were aware of the fact that the earth changes its tilt or “wobbles” on its axis. Many centuries before the Europeans were debating over whether the earth was flat, the Vedic rishis were figuring out exactly what effect the Earth’s wobble would have on the calculations of their ephemeris’s!

Where is the proof of this? He offers none. It is a very controversial statement, so he should have given proof. If his proof is that precession is hinted at in Surya Siddhanta we have to ask what date he assumes the Siddhanta was written? It is not thought of as an ancient work. It has been analyzed by historians as classical, not ancient. Further, the Siddhanta does not come out and perfectly describe the precession in clear language. It gives a principle stating that the equinoxes and stars drift in relationship to one another. I quoted this verse in my video.

David Frawley writes in his book, The Astrology of the Seers, that “The sidereal zodiac is probably the original zodiac historically, as it is the observable zodiac. The tropical, which is an abstract zodiac, must have been derived from it, as all abstractions are usually based on underlying observable things.”

In that case the most ancient literature should show twelve divisions of stars on the ecliptic. As I show in  my video, they don’t. The babylonians had 18 ecliptical constellations. The Indians had 27 (a 28th is north of the ecliptic).

The stars are only observable at night. That is why the sidereal / stellar zodiac is not the solar / tropical zodiac. It is a zodiac of “lunar mansions” / nakshatra.

As  my video shows, the 12 zodiac signs were originally an abstract mathematical concept based on how time passes on earth as a result of the interplay between the rhythms of the Sun and Moon.

The 12 signs never had anything to do with the stars, and the 27 nakshatras always had everything to do with the stars.  my video briefly explains why the equinoxes and signs are referenced against stellar counterparts.

Cyber Witchcraft: Sidereal vs. Tropical

REF: http://www.cyberwitchcraft.com/sidereal-tropical.html

This article is based on the assumption that the constellations of stars are the true signs. my video pretty thoroughly explains that this is not the case. In short: if the constellations are the true signs, we much use 13 signs, each over very unequal size (because that’s what the actual stars on the ecliptic really look like, according to our current way of mapping them). But the sidereal zodiac, like the tropical uses 12 signs each of equal length. So neither the sidereal nor tropical zodiac is defined by constellations. As I explain in my video they are defined by the interplay of rhythms of the Sun and Moon.

For the Sidereal Zodiac, by Kenneth Bowser

REF: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/sidereal2.html

The main point is the author’s statement essentially that “it’s obvious” that the Babylonian’s used a sidereal zodiac.

My reply is – yes, but it is not a 12-fold zodiac. It has 18 divisions. On the other hand their records clearly document that they have a year with 12 months based on solstices and equinoxes, and that they observe sidereal helical phenomenon to keep their solar year synchronized with sidereal, lunar time. I explain this in my video.

In my video I also address the authors contention that Ptolemy may have changed the Greek conception to a tropical one. In short: Ptolemy is the first author after the Greeks became aware that precession exists. Thus he is the first author to have a conscious choice between tropical and sidereal zodiacs, and expressly chose tropical – that the equinox is the definitive starting point of the zodiac.

These are the foundational points of his article. Without a foundation the rest is does not stand for trial.

 

“Vedic Astrology” – There is no Such Thing!…???


Well, the truth is that the term “Vedic Astrology” was invented in the early 1980s, amidst the popularity of ’70s India-movements like ISKCON (“Hare Krishna”) and TM (“Transcendental Meditation”) and their love for using the word Vedic in an alluring, attractive manner – referring loosely to just about anything that could be written in Sanskrit or Bengali.

Of course, such a definition of “Vedic” is not entirely wrong – regardless of how modern scholarship tries to cripple the term. By it’s very design, Vedic culture is not a static thing that happened at some point in time and is now dead. It is something that lives, grows, and thrives through time. So the fact that the term “Vedic Astrology” was coined in the ’80s, likely by an American, does not in itself prove any illegitimacy.

People a bit more in-the-know might want to use the term “Jyotisha” since it is at least a legitimate Sanskrit word. Whichever term you use – “Vedic Astrology” or “Jyotisha” – you get the distinct impression that you are dealing with something very ancient, or at least very Indian in origin. Yet the hard and cold fact of the mater is that Vedic Astrology / Jyotisha as we now practice it is neither very ancient nor very Indian (at least not by a scholars yardstick, often useless as they may be).

By now you might get the wrong impression that I am trying to strip India of her rightful glory in developing a really impressive system of astrology. Nothing could be further from the truth! The truest glory of India is unique ability to balance multiplicity, plurality and inclusiveness with traditional preservation. Just look at “Hinduism” – a harmonious coexistence of dozens of very ancient different religious beliefs and spiritual practices, that today remain at least as interesting and relevant and alive as any new philosophical novelties. India has always been extremely forward thinking and plural when it comes to maters of knowledge and philosophy. Thus it has always been an extremely open country, trading thought and techniques with its neighbors for as long as we have historical records. That is something to be proud of. What would be really stupid is for us to adopt a psuedo-aryan (get the pun?) mentality and think that only “pure” Indian or “pure” Vedic is good. “Indian” and “Vedic” by definition are inclusive and evolutionary.

Anyway, shy of it or proud of it, the truth is that Indian Astrology is a conglomerate composite of classical global astrological culture mixed with its ancient original roots. No doubt, ancient Indian astrology was very highly developed, but again there is no doubt that it was quite unlike the sign-and-house based system Vedic astrologers and Jyotishis use so heavily today.

What was Ancient Vedic Astrology like? This is my opinion. I am no scholar, but I have deeply studied Vedic culture and practice for more than half my life.

  1. It was not primarily “jataka” or “natal” – it was primarily spiritual / religious and political.
  2. It’s did have signs and houses perhaps, but by far its main points of reference were the Moon, Sun, and probably the 5 other planets in the 27 fixed stars (Nakshatra) – as well as the manner in which the Moon in these stars combined to form “yogas” with various combinations of Sunrise Lords and Lunar Phases.

Consider for example this description of the astrological conditions at Krishna’s birth, from the late Vedic classic, Srimad Bhagavatam (10th division, 3rd chapter, 1st and 2nd text):

कालह्̣ परम-शोभनह्̣ यर्ह्य् एवाजन-जन्मर्क्स्̣अम्́
शान्तर्क्स्̣अ-ग्रह-तारकम् दिशह्̣ प्रसेदुर् गगनम्́
निर्मलोद्̣उ-गन्̣ओदयम्

kālaḥ parama-śobhanaḥ yarhy evājana-janmarkṣaḿ
śāntarkṣa-graha-tārakam diśaḥ prasedur gaganaḿ
nirmaloḍu-gaṇodayam

“Fate reached its paramount beauty in the birth-star of the unborn. All the constellations were peaceful, as were the planets and even the outer stars. Every direction of the sky was peaceful, and all the spotless stars had risen.”

Notice that you hear nothing about a house or a sign? But of course when we want to look at Krsna’s horoscope we want to know what his rising sign was and so forth – that is fine – but that’s not how the ancient Indian Astrologers looked at it.

We hear that the star of the unborn was a focal point. This refers to the star / nakshatra we have come to systematically name Rohini, whose deity is the unborn, Brahma. We hear that the planets and stars were “peaceful” which is most likely a shorthand way of saying that there were no inauspicious placements in any of the calculations, but we don’t know what the calculations were, that information is not given. There is reference to “directions of the sky” which is a hint that there might have been some type of house system in use. And there is a reference to rising, a hint that attention may have been paid to the ascendant. We certainly don’t hear that “Jupiter was in the 11th house, Pisces” and that sort of familiar sounding thing.

Garga-samhita (there are two books with this name, making it more confusing) gives some additional definition of the astrology of Krishna’s birth. He gives the var, the paksha, tithi, maasa, and yoga. In English these terms mean: weekday, waxing/waning, lunar phase, month, and the combination resulting from day, phase, and nakshatra. I believe Garga also gives the time as “just coming to midnight.” Krishna was born on the half waning moon of the lunar month of Bhadrapada, and the yoga formed was “Harsha” – meaning “Eager to Enjoy.”

Now if you know a lot about the really old stuff in Vedic astrology, you can assemble a significant astrological reading from this data alone. But most “Vedic astrologers” and “Jyotishis” have forgotten what any of it means in the context of natal interpretation.

Later books (Kha Manikya, for example) venture a more modern description of Krishna’s horoscope as “Taurus Rising with the Moon and Ketu, Sun in Leo, Venus and Saturn in Libra, Mercury in Virgo, Mars in Capricorn, and Jupiter in Pisces.” A few centuries ago the great spiritualist Vishvananth Cakravarti ratified this presentation more or less, by quoting it in his commentary on the Srimad Bhagavatam verse we quoted above regarding Krishna’s birth. In very modern times, various speculators – probably unaware of this ratified opinion – have ventured forth their own ideas of the houses and signs of Krishna’s horoscope.

The point here is that none of it is what the ancient astrologers record about Krishna. The point is that really indigenous and ancient “Vedic” stuff is almost entirely about the 27 fixed stars and their relationship to the Sun, Moon, and Earth. The dependence on modern houses and signs, etc. came into India as a result of her incorporating the knowledge and practices of other cultures. For better or for worse most of what we have today is what Indian astrologers polished after taking what they thought best from the Egyptians and Greeks mainly received through her frequent and thorough exchanges with the Persians.

You may not want to believe me about this, but it is very, very hard to deny. For example: much of the terminology of “Indian” astrology is just an Indian spelling of words from other cultures. Kendra comes from Greek kentron.Trikona comes from Greek trigonon. Almost all the words having anything to do with solar returns are Sanskrit spellings of Persian words.

Some people think that there is such a thing as “Vedic astrological scriptures.” And in a sense, maybe there is. But you have to be aware that these were written in the late-classical historical period, or in an early-modern period – well after Indian astrology and mid-eastern astrology had thoroughly blended. You shouldn’t let the connotation of “Vedic scripture” lead you to wrongly assume that a book is thousands of years old.

Some people think that the amshas (subdivisions of signs) and dasas (astrological time phases) are unique to “Vedic Astrology” but, again, that is not the case. These systems are universal – its just that outside of India they were largely forgotten.

What is really glorious about India is that she managed to preserve and keep thriving the global astrological culture better than any other culture in the world. Thus the astrology we have in India today is far, far closer to true “western astrology” than western astrology itself is
(with, in my opinion, the notable glitch of their sidereal conception of the 12 signs).

It’s worth mentioning that if “Vedic astrology” is guilty of being a misleading term, so is “Western astrology” – which was almost entirely developed in the middle east.

If the signs and lords don’t feel especially Indian or Vedic to you, and sound more like universal metaphysics, that’s because you are perceptive. They are universal metaphysics. If, for whatever reason, you really want to dive into the “Vedic” roots of “Vedic Astrology” you should dive into understanding the symbolic mythology of the 27 stars. That alone will take you on a grand tour of the Puranas (a huge portion of “Vedic” literature). And you must also explore the interpretive effects of tithi and tithi-var-nakshatra yogas.

India’s blessing is her ability to preserve and probably improve these things where all other cultures lost or blurred their own systems. If you want to embrace “Vedic Astrology” more or less as it is today, you should do so confident that it will give you a starting point closer to the true ancient and classical global astrological system than you can get anywhere else.

- Vic DiCara

www.vicdicara.com

Photo of Ketu taken at the British Museum